I like an article that gives a perspective I was not aware of, challenging the consensus and pulling people out of the echo chamber. So thanks for this excellent post. (And reading the Slifkin article and others like it in this light is hilarious!)
That said, don't you think his PR stunts are also really damaging to Israel's global standing? Which IMO are pretty important. Perhaps more damaging than the good he's gotten done...
The global standing is in the eyes of The International Community, i.e., the NYT and its readers.
What those people want is to die, as evidenced by their birth rates and immigration policies. But what they want from us is that we should die first. They do not have the courage to say so, so what they do is to progressively limit our freedom of movement by, effectively, concern trolling in a ratcheting mechanism.
There is no way to win while playing within their rules. It's soccer, but with the opponent's half of the field gradually becoming off limits to you, while your opponent enjoys unfettered freedom of maneuver.
The only way to win is to flagrantly disregard their rules, grandiloquently. Examples: Trump, Milei, Bukele...Ben Gvir.
I know that the threat they're hanging over our heads is that they will make a Rhodesia out of us, but I don't buy that-it's empty.
I shared the worldview of Jacob Siegel's excellent article in Tablet:
Israel's global standing is directly created by the wide array of different groups and entities which benefit from and are held captive by the "poor Palestinians, bad Jews" narrative, a vast interlayered machinery in which Western leftist suicidal elites are only a single cog. https://critiqueanddigest.substack.com/p/a-metacritique-of-palestine
The demonstrated willingness to completely ignore the list of things that Simply Are Not Done is a prerquisite to shutting down that machine; but you have to know what to do with that capability.
I think that many politicians in the past were actually Israeli simps, not just people who shared interest, but for the most part I think Jacob Siegel's view is correct that it is a strategic partnership, an אהבה התלויה בדבר. But I part ways in what he says that we no longer need Israel like we used to, like Alexander Haig's "unsinkable aircraft" quote, which while I think that is a dramatic oversimplification (even then), there is also a lot of truth to it (similar to why Trump wants Greenland). And even with the alliances of many of the Arab states and other regional changes, and even though Israel is a liability, it is nonetheless still a big asset still IMO.
And even if not, and this is my main argument, *Israel* should treat it as such until they are ready to be independent, which - tell me if I'm wrong - they aren't quite there yet. So even if America is not a perfect ally, they are still a very helpful ally as of now.
All those people are among the most criminal people on the planet. But sure, pretend you’re somehow more moral while backing tyrants who destroy their countries.
Still, pardon me for repeating myself, my daughter, the Deputy Ambassador from Israel to Belgium told me Ben Gvir was a real pain in the tutz. Every day they had to deal with his shenanigans. Maybe you’re right about his outcomes, which seem excellent, but he was a hasbara catastrophe, and he never had to deal with that.
I realize you care little about what “ they” think of us. So does my daughter . But the day to day fight was exhausting.
Well, you know, I think that ideally civil servants exist to serve the interests of the people as determined by their political leaders, and not the other way around. And I am more than willing to see our diplomatic corps in Belgium inconvenienced if that's the price of effective self defense measures in Jewish hands.
I realized you’d say something like that. I understated her ‘exhaustion’. It wasn’t “inconvenient “—it was bad for Israel. Now you can argue whether you care or don’t care what the international press and government bodies think, but Ben Gvir was not a “political leader”, he was representing himself in this government.
Hadassah and her ambassador (very opposite sides of the political spectrum, btw) were fighting a war after October 7. It was bad enough having to explain what Bibi was doing. Plus she met with former hostages and hostages families, taking them around to various parliament members, etc (“Don’t go around corners like that!! It’s like being in the tunnels!”). It was hard enough talking to even the sidelines guys who weren’t antisemitic; she didn’t bother with the main leaders after awhile.
All I’m saying is, maybe to you it is not important (and I think Hadassah would agree with you because most of those people can’t be moved), but a government needs to have one voice. Of course, this is Israel, which is a myriad of voices.
Sarcasm: “woe to us that we Jews love ourselves more than those who hate us.” Your moral relativism, false righteousness, and hypocritical judgements speak volumes about your capacity for reason.
My question would be where are those flowers present, as the people (arsim) who beat bus drivers or harras Christians dont seem to be the flower either.
First, I completely understand both the guys who punched the Arab bus driver and spit on the Armenian church. They're not doing this for profit.
Second, there are plenty of courageous, honorable Israelis, many of whom risk their lives/freedom daily for their convictions. Stop reading bitter cowards whose entire ideology is a post facto attempt to justify their own cowardice and incapacity.
I am well familiar with Shabas(IPS) canteen. The "luxurious food" that you can buy is pasta, spices, tuna, tehina, lemon juice, garlic, canned peas, canned mushrooms, and about 50 other similar items.
Did you get girl soldiers on request when you were in?
They got fresh meat, salmon, extra for various religious holidays. I remember reading about pretty opulent feasts. Way, way more than terrorists should get, but if what you want is relative quiet until the next hostage exchange...
I am only responding to the luxurious food claim. It wasn't very luxurious.
It is true that they got raw meat and salmon from Red Cross, and criminal prisoners didn't, but that was the only official benefit that they had and criminals didn't. On the other hand, some canteen items were for criminal prisoners only, such as DVD player, BT headphones, and the like.
Even before Ben Gvir, they did not get to go to the gym while some criminal prisoners did. They couldn't work. They couldn't get Open University degrees. They didn't have open visits (where you can touch your visitors, the criminal ones had 30 minutes every two months), they didn't have conjugal visits. They didn't have phones, while criminals had unlimited paid calls.
Ok, funny quote from the article addameer article:
"Gradual decrease of prisons' "hasbaka" provisions in terms of quantity and variety of items"
It's bad enough that arabs can't pronounce "P", but actually writing it down is ... probably bad research, writing down the hebrew word from the Arabs pronouncing it, instead of looking the word up.
I like an article that gives a perspective I was not aware of, challenging the consensus and pulling people out of the echo chamber. So thanks for this excellent post. (And reading the Slifkin article and others like it in this light is hilarious!)
That said, don't you think his PR stunts are also really damaging to Israel's global standing? Which IMO are pretty important. Perhaps more damaging than the good he's gotten done...
Curious to hear your thoughts.
I don't buy this line of thinking at all.
The global standing is in the eyes of The International Community, i.e., the NYT and its readers.
What those people want is to die, as evidenced by their birth rates and immigration policies. But what they want from us is that we should die first. They do not have the courage to say so, so what they do is to progressively limit our freedom of movement by, effectively, concern trolling in a ratcheting mechanism.
There is no way to win while playing within their rules. It's soccer, but with the opponent's half of the field gradually becoming off limits to you, while your opponent enjoys unfettered freedom of maneuver.
The only way to win is to flagrantly disregard their rules, grandiloquently. Examples: Trump, Milei, Bukele...Ben Gvir.
I know that the threat they're hanging over our heads is that they will make a Rhodesia out of us, but I don't buy that-it's empty.
I shared the worldview of Jacob Siegel's excellent article in Tablet:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/not-so-special-relationship
It’s true that Belgistan doesn’t know what to do about their Muslim problem. They figure, maybe if they ignore it , it will go away.
They will bring in more and condemn Israel, just to prove they're not Islamophobic. Oughta do the trick.
Ya. They already got rid of 6 million of us. How many more to go before they hit that number?
With apologies to Tom Wolfe, Ben Gvir is Mau-Mauing the flak catchers.
Israel's global standing is directly created by the wide array of different groups and entities which benefit from and are held captive by the "poor Palestinians, bad Jews" narrative, a vast interlayered machinery in which Western leftist suicidal elites are only a single cog. https://critiqueanddigest.substack.com/p/a-metacritique-of-palestine
The demonstrated willingness to completely ignore the list of things that Simply Are Not Done is a prerquisite to shutting down that machine; but you have to know what to do with that capability.
With apologies to Tom Wolfe, Ben Gvir is Mau-Mauing the flak catchers.
I think that many politicians in the past were actually Israeli simps, not just people who shared interest, but for the most part I think Jacob Siegel's view is correct that it is a strategic partnership, an אהבה התלויה בדבר. But I part ways in what he says that we no longer need Israel like we used to, like Alexander Haig's "unsinkable aircraft" quote, which while I think that is a dramatic oversimplification (even then), there is also a lot of truth to it (similar to why Trump wants Greenland). And even with the alliances of many of the Arab states and other regional changes, and even though Israel is a liability, it is nonetheless still a big asset still IMO.
And even if not, and this is my main argument, *Israel* should treat it as such until they are ready to be independent, which - tell me if I'm wrong - they aren't quite there yet. So even if America is not a perfect ally, they are still a very helpful ally as of now.
They are?
All those people are among the most criminal people on the planet. But sure, pretend you’re somehow more moral while backing tyrants who destroy their countries.
Still, pardon me for repeating myself, my daughter, the Deputy Ambassador from Israel to Belgium told me Ben Gvir was a real pain in the tutz. Every day they had to deal with his shenanigans. Maybe you’re right about his outcomes, which seem excellent, but he was a hasbara catastrophe, and he never had to deal with that.
I realize you care little about what “ they” think of us. So does my daughter . But the day to day fight was exhausting.
Well, you know, I think that ideally civil servants exist to serve the interests of the people as determined by their political leaders, and not the other way around. And I am more than willing to see our diplomatic corps in Belgium inconvenienced if that's the price of effective self defense measures in Jewish hands.
I realized you’d say something like that. I understated her ‘exhaustion’. It wasn’t “inconvenient “—it was bad for Israel. Now you can argue whether you care or don’t care what the international press and government bodies think, but Ben Gvir was not a “political leader”, he was representing himself in this government.
Hadassah and her ambassador (very opposite sides of the political spectrum, btw) were fighting a war after October 7. It was bad enough having to explain what Bibi was doing. Plus she met with former hostages and hostages families, taking them around to various parliament members, etc (“Don’t go around corners like that!! It’s like being in the tunnels!”). It was hard enough talking to even the sidelines guys who weren’t antisemitic; she didn’t bother with the main leaders after awhile.
All I’m saying is, maybe to you it is not important (and I think Hadassah would agree with you because most of those people can’t be moved), but a government needs to have one voice. Of course, this is Israel, which is a myriad of voices.
Two things can simultaneously be true:
1. Ben Gvir really is a dangerous, hateful fanatic who behaves like a talking ape and his behavior is an embarrassment
2. We are soooooo lucky to have him
Ben Gvir: The hero Israel deserves, not the one it needs
He’s a baboon, but he’s OUR baboon
If that's how you talk about the people you like...
Well, you've made clear what you think Palestinians deserve.
it’s unlikely that Ben Gvir would object to being called a baboon
Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves. Fuck Palestine.
It's us or them. That's all it comes down to. Restraint and honour are western luxuries.
I imagine you get boners over seeing dead children.
I'm certain our enemies don't give a fuck about our kids either. All is fair in love and war. Spare me your self righteous hypocrisy.
I understand you perfectly well. This is makes inevitable that Israel will one day use nuclear weapons.
Woe to us all. Woe to what Judaism has become.
Sarcasm: “woe to us that we Jews love ourselves more than those who hate us.” Your moral relativism, false righteousness, and hypocritical judgements speak volumes about your capacity for reason.
Populism & political stunts aside, what are some actual differences between the policy and vision of his party and that of Smotrich?
Smotrich is focused on the settlement movement, where he's been making huge progress. I think that he is more mamlachti, state worshipping.
Who's more popular between the two amongst the hilltop youth?
The guys aren't much into politics.
> jailers providing the inmates with female Jewish conscript soldiers for sex
This has to be a joke, any links on the matter?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/prison-commander-says-female-idf-soldiers-were-pimped-to-terrorist-inmates/
I did not know Jews would stoop this low…
Maybe our peoples are not so different after all
Our jailers are not exactly the flower of Jewish society.
My question would be where are those flowers present, as the people (arsim) who beat bus drivers or harras Christians dont seem to be the flower either.
First, I completely understand both the guys who punched the Arab bus driver and spit on the Armenian church. They're not doing this for profit.
Second, there are plenty of courageous, honorable Israelis, many of whom risk their lives/freedom daily for their convictions. Stop reading bitter cowards whose entire ideology is a post facto attempt to justify their own cowardice and incapacity.
I agree with your assessment, there are plenty of people like you mention in all nations. The issue is their % and effects.
As for Dr. Martindale I will have to follow him to counterbalance your takes. It is like the Yin and Yang you know
More than likely, they " provided " themselves abd the authorities were only to happy to go along with it.
Doubt
Thank you. Finally a sensible and nuanced description of Ben Gvir and his tactics that doesn't reduce him to an inarticulate monkey.
Slifkin? I knew that name sounded familiar for a reason. Chananya Weissman seems to be beefing with him.
For "luxurious food in unlimited quantities", you linked https://addameer.ps/sites/default/files/publications/final_report_red_2_0.pdf.
I am well familiar with Shabas(IPS) canteen. The "luxurious food" that you can buy is pasta, spices, tuna, tehina, lemon juice, garlic, canned peas, canned mushrooms, and about 50 other similar items.
Did you get girl soldiers on request when you were in?
They got fresh meat, salmon, extra for various religious holidays. I remember reading about pretty opulent feasts. Way, way more than terrorists should get, but if what you want is relative quiet until the next hostage exchange...
I am only responding to the luxurious food claim. It wasn't very luxurious.
It is true that they got raw meat and salmon from Red Cross, and criminal prisoners didn't, but that was the only official benefit that they had and criminals didn't. On the other hand, some canteen items were for criminal prisoners only, such as DVD player, BT headphones, and the like.
Even before Ben Gvir, they did not get to go to the gym while some criminal prisoners did. They couldn't work. They couldn't get Open University degrees. They didn't have open visits (where you can touch your visitors, the criminal ones had 30 minutes every two months), they didn't have conjugal visits. They didn't have phones, while criminals had unlimited paid calls.
Ok, you've convinced me, it was anudda Shoah
Ok, funny quote from the article addameer article:
"Gradual decrease of prisons' "hasbaka" provisions in terms of quantity and variety of items"
It's bad enough that arabs can't pronounce "P", but actually writing it down is ... probably bad research, writing down the hebrew word from the Arabs pronouncing it, instead of looking the word up.