"It’s difficult to imagine senior leaders purposely sacrificing 1200 Israeli lives and allowing the worst military defeat in Israeli history to take place, even to bring down Bibi and save democracy."
It's possible, if this theory is correct, that once the attack started it got out of control and resulted in 1200 deaths.
Fair. You implied there was a doublecross which implies coordination. Otherwise it would be more a misunderstanding of the intel they received. Also if Barak was receiving intel and others in that echelon weren’t that is a real problem.
I'm an American, and US military veteran, with close to no grasp of Israeli politics but as soon I heard of the extent of the attack and how ill prepared Israeli intelligence and defense forces were I told some I know that it had the stench of an intentional action organized by power lusting political radicals (remorseless sociopaths) attempting to seize power in Israel. But I'd be willing to bet the arrangement Israeli conspirators made with Hamas called for much less slaughter of defenseless Israeli civilians than in fact resulted. Let's hope all the conspirators are exposed and dealt with decisively.
My understanding is that the protestors + deep state are so aggressive because they believe, with some reason, that demographic trends are moving inexorably against them. If that’s the case, let’s assume they topple Bibi and break the coalition, what’s the next step?
The day after Bibi leaves, they still face the same underlying problem and have at most delayed the inevitable. Is that the extent of their planning - to delay and hope something changes unexpectedly?
Anecdotally, I was on a date recently and mentioned this theory to her. She said her father said the exact same thing (Based Iraqi Jew), but that she doesn't want to believe it because it's hard for her to accept that our leaders would be so evil. I pointed out that they did far more evil things in the past such as Oslo. I think many people implicitly know the truth, that they knew about this in advance and didn't stop it, though the reason why is not yet clear. The question is if any true leadership will arise to take advantage of this moment or if Israel will fall back into the grip of the uniparty.
The Altalena & the ringworm testing come to mind amongst many, Jonathan Pollard was interviewed a few days after 10_7 and one of the commenters said that this was a color revolution that had gone off/ too far and it was one of those odd channels with no content and never got a reply when I inquired what?
I really do not want to believe this. Unfortunately, it makes a certain amount of sense. Still, I'm resisting. There's a lot of stupidity out there, to go with the evil.
My only problem with it is that Netanyahu has been the PM on and off since 1996. Doesn't he have *some* input as to security matters? I think the case would be stronger if the finger were pointed in both directions, which is even worse. Both factions weren't too ruffled by the idea of a Hamas terror attack. No one imagined that it would be *this* bad, but both sides had something to gain if a Maalot-type attack happened.
Bibi has input as long as he's going with the flow.
Bibi had much more to lose from a spectacular failure of the security system, as 1) it stood to lose him his Knesset majority, 2) due to the media being against him, the spin would automatically be that the failure was his and not, say, that of the previous five army chiefs of staff, 3) his whole selling point has been stability and steady economic improvement (fake, but now he doesn't even have that.)
"Bibi has input as long as he's going with the flow."
I'm an American, I really don't understand that. He's PM - has he no power?
As for your 2nd paragraph, I totally agree but you sidestepped my question and in effect proved my point. If Bibi had so much to lose then why didn't he see that something bad could happen in the Gaza envelope and done something about it? Are you really saying he has no power? If so please explain that. I don't know Israeli politics as you do.
IMO both sides had something to gain by a terrorist attack - not what happened, but an attack of some sort. And that is your real civil war.
This war could probably end up bringing down Israel's entire security establishment, especially if blame is placed on Netanyahu. Netanyahu will never go down without a fight, and he is certainly willing to trade blows with the Israeli deep state when the conclusion and aftermath of this war arrives.
That's definitely a factor, but doesn't explain the buildup to Oct 7. It wasn't just that it took them long to respond, they spent months ignoring the signals of the attack and weakening communities near the border. That can't be blamed on the ROE.
Here's the point of the question and the reward for investing time in finding out:
IF the lawyers and leaders together are shown to sum to Freeze instead of Fight or Flight, THEN the lawyers may be shown the door. Or at least we can all see the way.
Personally, I think hours after the attack were spent covering Commands, Politicians and Lawyers asses THEN the IDF and the Air Force can attack...
>I think the guards last words weren't just 'we're under attack' but asking permission to shoot. < On the matter of Shooting in War:
ATTENTION NON-ROE COMBAT VETERANS: STFU. SHUT THE F*** UP.
Because clearly you haven't seen the Troops Freeze because they're afraid of going to jail, and clearly I have.
I DON'T CARE IF YOU ARE A MEDAL OF HONOR WINNER: STFU.
Conspiracy or Cowardice?
I can't speak to the issue of why they ignored warnings.
I'm thinking Sloth and Complacency and possibly cowardice.
I believe in cowardice before conspiracy.
I certainly believe that cowardice is the default conspiracy.
Who wants to be the Dick who called an alert on a Holiday and nothing happens?
To call an alert requires moral courage, and a lot of grumbling all round when nothing happens.
It is both true that Pallywood milks the "we wuz obbressed" narrative for all it's worth (despite the obbression being more than mild compared to what they'd get in any Arab country) and that the Israeli establishment is crooked, corrupt and doesn't shy away from criminal conspiracy and going after people in less than honest ways.
You could look at the Season in 1944, when Hagana went after Etzel.
Administrative detention and killing people in custody went back before that, to the British.
"It’s difficult to imagine senior leaders purposely sacrificing 1200 Israeli lives and allowing the worst military defeat in Israeli history to take place, even to bring down Bibi and save democracy."
It's possible, if this theory is correct, that once the attack started it got out of control and resulted in 1200 deaths.
Yes, that's what I meant to say
The whole thing seemed totally suspect. I'm not a big conspiracy guy but it just doesn't make sense that every piece of negligence lines up perfectly
Does Barak still have access to military intel at this level?
I suspect so.
I am sure he wasn't just hanging out with Epstein because he's a pervert.
Is the theory that he actively coordinated with Hamas or received the intel without them knowing and gave instructions to turn a blind eye?
I don't have theories.
Fair. You implied there was a doublecross which implies coordination. Otherwise it would be more a misunderstanding of the intel they received. Also if Barak was receiving intel and others in that echelon weren’t that is a real problem.
I'm an American, and US military veteran, with close to no grasp of Israeli politics but as soon I heard of the extent of the attack and how ill prepared Israeli intelligence and defense forces were I told some I know that it had the stench of an intentional action organized by power lusting political radicals (remorseless sociopaths) attempting to seize power in Israel. But I'd be willing to bet the arrangement Israeli conspirators made with Hamas called for much less slaughter of defenseless Israeli civilians than in fact resulted. Let's hope all the conspirators are exposed and dealt with decisively.
Interesting theory, but hasn't the war helped Netanyahu stay in office?
Correct.
For now.
My understanding is that the protestors + deep state are so aggressive because they believe, with some reason, that demographic trends are moving inexorably against them. If that’s the case, let’s assume they topple Bibi and break the coalition, what’s the next step?
The day after Bibi leaves, they still face the same underlying problem and have at most delayed the inevitable. Is that the extent of their planning - to delay and hope something changes unexpectedly?
The demographics of Homosexuals and DINKS aren’t encouraging anywhere, not even in America. As I understand it Israel has very healthy demographics.
Anecdotally, I was on a date recently and mentioned this theory to her. She said her father said the exact same thing (Based Iraqi Jew), but that she doesn't want to believe it because it's hard for her to accept that our leaders would be so evil. I pointed out that they did far more evil things in the past such as Oslo. I think many people implicitly know the truth, that they knew about this in advance and didn't stop it, though the reason why is not yet clear. The question is if any true leadership will arise to take advantage of this moment or if Israel will fall back into the grip of the uniparty.
The Altalena & the ringworm testing come to mind amongst many, Jonathan Pollard was interviewed a few days after 10_7 and one of the commenters said that this was a color revolution that had gone off/ too far and it was one of those odd channels with no content and never got a reply when I inquired what?
I really do not want to believe this. Unfortunately, it makes a certain amount of sense. Still, I'm resisting. There's a lot of stupidity out there, to go with the evil.
My only problem with it is that Netanyahu has been the PM on and off since 1996. Doesn't he have *some* input as to security matters? I think the case would be stronger if the finger were pointed in both directions, which is even worse. Both factions weren't too ruffled by the idea of a Hamas terror attack. No one imagined that it would be *this* bad, but both sides had something to gain if a Maalot-type attack happened.
Bibi has input as long as he's going with the flow.
Bibi had much more to lose from a spectacular failure of the security system, as 1) it stood to lose him his Knesset majority, 2) due to the media being against him, the spin would automatically be that the failure was his and not, say, that of the previous five army chiefs of staff, 3) his whole selling point has been stability and steady economic improvement (fake, but now he doesn't even have that.)
"Bibi has input as long as he's going with the flow."
I'm an American, I really don't understand that. He's PM - has he no power?
As for your 2nd paragraph, I totally agree but you sidestepped my question and in effect proved my point. If Bibi had so much to lose then why didn't he see that something bad could happen in the Gaza envelope and done something about it? Are you really saying he has no power? If so please explain that. I don't know Israeli politics as you do.
IMO both sides had something to gain by a terrorist attack - not what happened, but an attack of some sort. And that is your real civil war.
This war could probably end up bringing down Israel's entire security establishment, especially if blame is placed on Netanyahu. Netanyahu will never go down without a fight, and he is certainly willing to trade blows with the Israeli deep state when the conclusion and aftermath of this war arrives.
Let's hope they bring each other down!
How much a part did ROE and the predictable “freeze” that ROE causes play into matters?
I’ve seen it.
ROE - Rules Of Engagement.
Fight
Or
Flight
But
Add lawyers = FREEZE
Because I can smell the lawyers from here...
Without discounting the theory above.
That's definitely a factor, but doesn't explain the buildup to Oct 7. It wasn't just that it took them long to respond, they spent months ignoring the signals of the attack and weakening communities near the border. That can't be blamed on the ROE.
ROE: [Rules of Engagement]:
Here's the point of the question and the reward for investing time in finding out:
IF the lawyers and leaders together are shown to sum to Freeze instead of Fight or Flight, THEN the lawyers may be shown the door. Or at least we can all see the way.
Personally, I think hours after the attack were spent covering Commands, Politicians and Lawyers asses THEN the IDF and the Air Force can attack...
>I think the guards last words weren't just 'we're under attack' but asking permission to shoot. < On the matter of Shooting in War:
ATTENTION NON-ROE COMBAT VETERANS: STFU. SHUT THE F*** UP.
Because clearly you haven't seen the Troops Freeze because they're afraid of going to jail, and clearly I have.
I DON'T CARE IF YOU ARE A MEDAL OF HONOR WINNER: STFU.
Conspiracy or Cowardice?
I can't speak to the issue of why they ignored warnings.
I'm thinking Sloth and Complacency and possibly cowardice.
I believe in cowardice before conspiracy.
I certainly believe that cowardice is the default conspiracy.
Who wants to be the Dick who called an alert on a Holiday and nothing happens?
To call an alert requires moral courage, and a lot of grumbling all round when nothing happens.
"hoped to get rid of Netanyahu through judiciary means."
Re-reading this something occurred to me: the Deep State in the US took a page from the "siloviki" playbook with regard to Trump.
Ehud Barak was on US television a few days after the atrocities, looking remarkably composed. He said the war is not existential.
I appreciate the sarcastic implication.
It is both true that Pallywood milks the "we wuz obbressed" narrative for all it's worth (despite the obbression being more than mild compared to what they'd get in any Arab country) and that the Israeli establishment is crooked, corrupt and doesn't shy away from criminal conspiracy and going after people in less than honest ways.
You could look at the Season in 1944, when Hagana went after Etzel.
Administrative detention and killing people in custody went back before that, to the British.