Minor correction: Haredi individuals weren't completely exempt from military service; rather, they could "postpone" it as long as they studied in a yeshiva/kollel and didn't work for a living.
This was likely a strategy to compel them to join the military, which ironically coincided with the Rabbis' agenda of encouraging individuals to remain in kollel for as possible.
I think that if there were a strategy there, it would be economic class warfare, since you're preventing your enemies from pursuing formal professional qualification until they turn 26, which in a community which marries young and has many kids means likely never.
On the way to University in Beer Sheva, there's a nice Bridge, surrounded by pleasant blooming Cacti.
Some NPCs always plaster the Kaplan current thing stickers all over it. I saw the demands for Haredi draft glued everywhere for the last two weeks.
This whole subject really bothers me. The IDF should be kicking out 60% of the paper pushers anyway.
In the privatized dati leumi 'Kibbutz" I grew up in, one of the guys decided, a week before he was drafted, that he wouldn't serve. They didn't like his weird spergy reasoning, so they tossed him in military prison, and let him go after he didn't eat for 12 days.
What's really kind of sad, is what he told me about some of the people stuck in there. He told me about one guy, who was actually just retarded, but just functional enough for the system to keep him in prison, draft him, and then send him back to prison when he inevitably misbehaved.
Btw, have you planted sugar cane? They are a fantastic plant.
If I may be so bold to make a prediction, I would predict that this will indeed cause more chareidim to join the army as their money runs dry.
Unfortunately for the army, it will likely be those on the older side- 25 and older, with families who actually need the money, and will see the army as a legitimate opportunity, along with making onerous demands for the army to accommodate their chareidi religious preferences. This will turn into a huge headache for the army. The ones that the army really wants, 18-22 yr old bochurim, will not be affected much by funding cuts at all.
I disagree with the last paragraph - the Chareidim knew the judiciary was a sworn enemy throughout the last ''judicial revolution'', but their strategy is to lay low if possible and allow others to fight for them and they'd likely do so again in futre, if they could.
What will change in the next round, is that the stakes will be higher, as demographics trend inexorably against the secular, boiling the water bit by bit.
Firstly, I'm not convinced it's failed. Sure, the SC passed a law, but they are not actually going to get drafted. They'll lose their money at most, but not their religion, which is, in fact, the priority.
Second is there is no alternative strategy. It's all downstream of the original Agudah decision made when the Zionsist declared the State in '48, in that we we won't agitate against (like Satmar) nor for, like the RZ's.
Although secular "deferment numbers are currently equal to those of Haredim," it's quite disingenuous to imply that therefore chilonim and Haredim are fellow travelers in the art of the draft-dodge. Chilonim outnumber Haredim 5-to-1. Deferment rates should be compared, not numbers.
I did not claim to compare rates. However, since you showed up and seem to be interested, what is the actual absolute number comparison between draft-aged Haredim and Hilonim?
I know you didn't compare rates. You instead compared actual numbers, and I was saying it was disingenuous to do so.
I don't know actual numbers or rates of induction for either group. But in 2022, 88% of secular-public (mamlachti) school graduates enlisted, whereas 91% of Haredi school graduates did not.
In any case, the Kan article you cited shows that Haredi enlistment is de minimus, and those who do enlist are on the margins of Haredi society. For mainstream Haredim, the number and percentage of those enlisting is (almost by definition) near zero.
No, it's not disingenuous to compare numbers. The IDF's needs are expressed in numbers, not rates. As for your last sentence, I literally wrote it.
The broader point is that there's no shortage of non-religious exemptions, which the Haredim will take advantage of if the religious one is removed. Is there anything else in the article you wanted to argue about?
To say that this is a purely political issue is insane. For better or worse, this is a festering-wound bleeding since the creation of the state. In a war, all bets are off. Structural issue. In many ways, connected to subsidies. Hareidim lost the opportunity to present an alternative by taking a maximally negative position.
But to portray this as some legislative trick is just crazy. A nearsighted thinking.
This is an interesting article, but as a non Israeli, I have to ask: why does the Israeli left hate Bibi so much? He's pretty innocuous from a leftist POV, no?
I don't know if you are naiive or not. I don't know you at all. I just find le based internet talk and boomer Aish half-truths go together in a funny way in this piece.
College is a waste of time and being a kollelnik is strictly better than being a grad student. yet there is nothing in this discussion that follows from that. but I understand where your feeling that it's relevant to this discussion comes from.
Thank you for writing this. I've unsubscribed from the other blog, so I can only imagine what this must be in response to.
Minor correction: Haredi individuals weren't completely exempt from military service; rather, they could "postpone" it as long as they studied in a yeshiva/kollel and didn't work for a living.
This was likely a strategy to compel them to join the military, which ironically coincided with the Rabbis' agenda of encouraging individuals to remain in kollel for as possible.
I think that if there were a strategy there, it would be economic class warfare, since you're preventing your enemies from pursuing formal professional qualification until they turn 26, which in a community which marries young and has many kids means likely never.
On the way to University in Beer Sheva, there's a nice Bridge, surrounded by pleasant blooming Cacti.
Some NPCs always plaster the Kaplan current thing stickers all over it. I saw the demands for Haredi draft glued everywhere for the last two weeks.
This whole subject really bothers me. The IDF should be kicking out 60% of the paper pushers anyway.
In the privatized dati leumi 'Kibbutz" I grew up in, one of the guys decided, a week before he was drafted, that he wouldn't serve. They didn't like his weird spergy reasoning, so they tossed him in military prison, and let him go after he didn't eat for 12 days.
What's really kind of sad, is what he told me about some of the people stuck in there. He told me about one guy, who was actually just retarded, but just functional enough for the system to keep him in prison, draft him, and then send him back to prison when he inevitably misbehaved.
Btw, have you planted sugar cane? They are a fantastic plant.
Sugar cane is not a good plant for my purposes and conditions (reforestation in dry, rocky uplands)
Like for Shtetlib alone.
It’s the only ferrigner word I understood.
Maybe
Seems this will be the beginning of the end for the Supreme Court in it’s current form. They’ll disappear long before the Haredi do.
Good no more Charedi rock throwers expecting others to fight for them when the shooting starts.
Damn right.
If I may be so bold to make a prediction, I would predict that this will indeed cause more chareidim to join the army as their money runs dry.
Unfortunately for the army, it will likely be those on the older side- 25 and older, with families who actually need the money, and will see the army as a legitimate opportunity, along with making onerous demands for the army to accommodate their chareidi religious preferences. This will turn into a huge headache for the army. The ones that the army really wants, 18-22 yr old bochurim, will not be affected much by funding cuts at all.
I disagree with the last paragraph - the Chareidim knew the judiciary was a sworn enemy throughout the last ''judicial revolution'', but their strategy is to lay low if possible and allow others to fight for them and they'd likely do so again in futre, if they could.
What will change in the next round, is that the stakes will be higher, as demographics trend inexorably against the secular, boiling the water bit by bit.
The Charedi strategy to lay low has just failed spectacularly, due to their opponents being too stupid to understand the flip side. Now what?
Firstly, I'm not convinced it's failed. Sure, the SC passed a law, but they are not actually going to get drafted. They'll lose their money at most, but not their religion, which is, in fact, the priority.
Second is there is no alternative strategy. It's all downstream of the original Agudah decision made when the Zionsist declared the State in '48, in that we we won't agitate against (like Satmar) nor for, like the RZ's.
Although secular "deferment numbers are currently equal to those of Haredim," it's quite disingenuous to imply that therefore chilonim and Haredim are fellow travelers in the art of the draft-dodge. Chilonim outnumber Haredim 5-to-1. Deferment rates should be compared, not numbers.
I did not claim to compare rates. However, since you showed up and seem to be interested, what is the actual absolute number comparison between draft-aged Haredim and Hilonim?
I know you didn't compare rates. You instead compared actual numbers, and I was saying it was disingenuous to do so.
I don't know actual numbers or rates of induction for either group. But in 2022, 88% of secular-public (mamlachti) school graduates enlisted, whereas 91% of Haredi school graduates did not.
In any case, the Kan article you cited shows that Haredi enlistment is de minimus, and those who do enlist are on the margins of Haredi society. For mainstream Haredim, the number and percentage of those enlisting is (almost by definition) near zero.
No, it's not disingenuous to compare numbers. The IDF's needs are expressed in numbers, not rates. As for your last sentence, I literally wrote it.
The broader point is that there's no shortage of non-religious exemptions, which the Haredim will take advantage of if the religious one is removed. Is there anything else in the article you wanted to argue about?
To say that this is a purely political issue is insane. For better or worse, this is a festering-wound bleeding since the creation of the state. In a war, all bets are off. Structural issue. In many ways, connected to subsidies. Hareidim lost the opportunity to present an alternative by taking a maximally negative position.
But to portray this as some legislative trick is just crazy. A nearsighted thinking.
Yes, of course, this has been a terrible and urgent issue for 76 years, which is why solving it couldn't wait a second further!
Perhaps I am confused about the point you're trying to make.
Yes, likely.
This is an interesting article, but as a non Israeli, I have to ask: why does the Israeli left hate Bibi so much? He's pretty innocuous from a leftist POV, no?
a fun mix of cynicism about the pinko IDF and Aishy naivete about the Mir and Ponevezh smoking-and-shmoozing clubs
I have Mir bochurim at my house about every 2-3 weeks.
I also have the benefit of having attended universities in the US and Israel, so I have points of comparison.
nice guys for the most part!
Point is that I'm not naive. Many people use their yeshiva years to hang out and socialize. Compared to college, uh...
I don't know if you are naiive or not. I don't know you at all. I just find le based internet talk and boomer Aish half-truths go together in a funny way in this piece.
College is a waste of time and being a kollelnik is strictly better than being a grad student. yet there is nothing in this discussion that follows from that. but I understand where your feeling that it's relevant to this discussion comes from.
Can you call yer coz Seth Rogen and get this on South Park?